New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

[zrk]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

That is the weird part.. what damages? Because it is Mercenary that does damage, but edge takes damage away in the first place. Remember, skels do significantly less damage than a solid act 2 mercenary.

 

[Knarlfist]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I set a nice trap there for you to fall into.

I soloed the game in Hardcore, made many, many trips WsK/Baal with my Oriana, a fire rogue, who was dressed with 'Edge', Twitchthroe and Stealskull.

With untwinked items, I'm confident that Thorns out-damages the Might setup. It might even beat it in a twinked setup, to a point, but I'm not interested in acquiring all of that stuff just to prove that at some point an Enigma wearing Necro with a Might/Infinity mercenary outstrips my 'TirTalAmn' bow.

I wrote about this more in depth on the Amazon Basin forums in a thread with the title: Giving your summoner an 'Edge'. You can read a little more about my thoughts there, or simply make the bow and give it a test drive yourself.

It's nice to read about your experiences with the Act1 Rogue, and I have no doubt you could solo thru HC with her... after all I've even heard about people basically playing naked.

But I don't see the value in you mentioning how you think Thorns will outdamage Might - because in the setup I mentioned you would have BOTH Might Act2 merc AND Thorns on swap. How could your setup with just Thorns beat out having both your cake and eating it too?


I am not even trying to speak to whether Thorns would be better than Might... although just from a quick estimation I would highly doubt that to be the case. I am just saying that it can be nice to have Thorns on weapon swap for those times in Norm and NM that your army gets swarmed by Fast hard-hitting physical dmg mobs. You can just let them quickly kill themselves on your Thorns aura, and all it takes is a simple weapon swap.

Rest of the time, it's a completely standard Summoner setup with Maxed Skellies/Amp Dmg/Act2 Might merc. Thorns isn't there as a sacrifice in place of some other benefit, it's there on swap as an additional tool when needed.

 

[MYK]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

That is the weird part.. what damages? Because it is Mercenary that does damage, but edge takes damage away in the first place. Remember, skels do significantly less damage than a solid act 2 mercenary.

What damages, indeed.

I spent the afternoon building a cheap calculater in python to model damage reflection and hits required for monsters to die.
It's fun to plug in wicked numbers and see that Lister can kill himself in JUST 4 hits, three if he manages to land a critical, but all of that calculation is purely in a vacuum and not where the rubber meets the Throneroom.

I have no doubt that an impressively geared act 2 guy can do great, but at that point you might as well just go pure mercmancer, no?
It always seems like my skeletons are getting in the way, or he's caught on terrain, or he's hanging out behind a pillar... Hazade just isn't too bright.

It's nice to read about your experiences with the Act1 Rogue, and I have no doubt you could solo thru HC with her... after all I've even heard about people basically playing naked.

But I don't see the value in you mentioning how you think Thorns will outdamage Might - because in the setup I mentioned you would have BOTH Might Act2 merc AND Thorns on swap. How could your setup with just Thorns beat out having both your cake and eating it too?


I am not even trying to speak to whether Thorns would be better than Might... although just from a quick estimation I would highly doubt that to be the case. I am just saying that it can be nice to have Thorns on weapon swap for those times in Norm and NM that your army gets swarmed by Fast hard-hitting physical dmg mobs. You can just let them quickly kill themselves on your Thorns aura, and all it takes is a simple weapon swap.

Rest of the time, it's a completely standard Summoner setup with Maxed Skellies/Amp Dmg/Act2 Might merc. Thorns isn't there as a sacrifice in place of some other benefit, it's there on swap as an additional tool when needed.

It's interesting that you're trying to discount the performance of Edge by comparing it to that of a naked character. I switched between the mercenaries quite often, and one of them definitely shined brighter than the other.

I didn't state or imply that Thorns beats Might AND Thorns.

I think a Thorns swap is really cool and I'll give it a try. I might miss having my Teleport staff on switch, though. :[

 

[Knarlfist]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I wasn't trying to purposely infer anything... it's just that you both quoted me in your response, AND said I fell into your trap.

But my post was about using both Thorns and Might. And your post was about using a Rogue merc where you would have Thorns, but be giving up Might.

So the comparison is automatically gonna be there. If you offer it up in specific response to my post, then the assumption is gonna be that you think Thorns by itself is somehow gonna be better. And as for the Naked part, I didn't use it to discount Thorns in any manner. I just said that by logic, since it's possible to solo Hell HC naked, then of course it would possible to solo HC with Thorns. But that has nothing to do with the fact that monster Life in Hell mode massively ramps up in comparison to the dmg returns of Thorns.

Which is the entire reason why people find that Thorns starts to really suck after late NM and onward. Just because you decided to suffer thru it in Hell mode, even after it becomes inefficient and tbh kinda crappy, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be wiser to just change to a Might Merc with tons of weapon options (Insight,Reaper's,Obediance,etc) and do the job better and faster.

If you are here to come out and unequivocally say (which you haven't really done yet) that Thorns still deals insane dmg even in Hell mode... I think either you are mis-remembering or might have been on some substances while playing?? Sure you could slug thru it if you chose to, but most people realize how bad it slows down and change to something better.

 

[MYK]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

If you are here to come out and unequivocally say (which you haven't really done yet) that Thorns still deals insane dmg even in Hell mode... I think either you are mis-remembering or might have been on some substances while playing?? Sure you could slug thru it if you chose to, but most people realize how bad it slows down and change to something better.

I don't really know how to prove that it does massive damage. You have to take into account monster damage, DR, if your minions are cursed with either Decrepify or Amplify Damage, if the monsters are Extra Strong or have a Might aura or Fanaticism or Stone Skin.

Thorns damage does 0 against a poison mage, or it could do 6,000 per hit against the right pack.

My main want is a recognition of how powerful the Thorns damage can be via Edge, whether it's just a switch weapon or full-time Rogue weapon. It's incredibly cheap and deserves a spot in any sort of guide to a New Ladder Fishymancer. At the very least, at least you get a shopping discount at Gheed.

And you're right, I probably hallucinated the whole thing. I'll go take some pills, give my mercenary Edge and watch the room spin.

And my trap comment was about finding someone who I could jabber on about Thorns with, nothing against you at all.

 

[zrk]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

Yeah the 1.07 and 1.10 especially ramped up monster life in normal a5 and afterwards.. thats why it may seem to be relatively more useful in the earlier normal acts, which retain some of the ancient balance of pre-expansion patches

 

[Knarlfist]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

Well, now you are bringing up another sore subject for me.

I make post after post railing against how many regulars here make guides, or give advice to newer players, and every time it is always "Infinity this, Enigma that, Fort and Grief, eBotDz eDoom this and that yada yada". And from the tone of most of them, they seem to think you should have Enigma within the first 3-5 days of a new ladder.

So on your point about including fairly sweet low gear options like Edge in build guides, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What am I suppose to think when I read their recommendations, when I may have joined here in 2008 but I've played D2 itself since 1.08/1.09, and I have NEVER owned any of those runewords or top items? They make it sound like easy classes like Fishymancer can't be played without Enigma >.>

I thought this was just a game, something relaxing to do for maybe an hour after a hard days work. If most of them are running 24/7 bots across multiple accounts, trading with forum gold in that place I won't even bother to name, and getting online for minimum 6-10 hours every single day, then maybe they have a different experience than other players do. But why do they turn around and assume every regular player on Bnet has 100+HRs of wealth within days of a new ladder, and then state gear like Infinity/Enigma is pretty much required? /boggles the mind.

News Flash: Playing this decade old game with a simple class like Summoner Necro does not require Enigma... or even special gear. I am sure it can be done naked, and most likely already has been done. Stick your forum gold where it belongs, where the sun don't shine.

 

[baldanders]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I don't really know how to prove that it does massive damage.

My intuition tells me that just the Edge bow should be a lot weaker than Might for a well-geared Fishy. Bramble stacks right? My intuition still tells me that an ACT 1 rogue with Edge+Bramble < than a well-geared Act 2 merc. But my intuition could be very, very wrong. Haven't done the math.

Lvl 15 Thorns seems useless in Hell. But assuming Bramble stacks you could get a Lvl 36 Thorns. You would have to give up _everything_ about your Act 2 merc though, and that is a lot if you assume good gear on him. You can't just compare to the Might aura- you must also factor in the fact that you now lack the Act 2 Merc, who can be pretty good. Anyway since you are the one proposing this I nominate you to do the math. No fair just looking at hard-hitters like Lister.

And Knarl: Your point is well-taken. Might be interesting in NM as a switch but... lots of other useful switches at that point. I can't say my Fishy had any problems at all in NM other than getting bottle-necked in the Maggot Lair and Arcane. I'd rather have tele charges on switch for that reason.

 

[MYK]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

My intuition tells me that just the Edge bow should be a lot weaker than Might for a well-geared Fishy. Bramble stacks right? My intuition still tells me that an ACT 1 rogue with Edge+Bramble < than a well-geared Act 2 merc. But my intuition could be very, very wrong. Haven't done the math.

Lvl 15 Thorns seems useless in Hell. But assuming Bramble stacks you could get a Lvl 36 Thorns. You would have to give up _everything_ about your Act 2 merc though, and that is a lot if you assume good gear on him. You can't just compare to the Might aura- you must also factor in the fact that you now lack the Act 2 Merc, who can be pretty good. Anyway since you are the one proposing this I nominate you to do the math. No fair just looking at hard-hitters like Lister.

And Knarl: Your point is well-taken. Might be interesting in NM as a switch but... lots of other useful switches at that point. I can't say my Fishy had any problems at all in NM other than getting bottle-necked in the Maggot Lair and Arcane. I'd rather have tele charges on switch for that reason.

Slvl 15 Thorns reflects 810% damage.
Against a 0% DR target, it's suddenly 1,620% with Amplify Damage.
Skeletons have a default 0% DR, so having Decrepify, or better yet, Amplify Damage cast on THEM is huge.

Extra Strong uniques in Hell do 99% more damage, while the minions do 66% more.
Stone Skin applies 50% DR.
Might and Fanaticism can apply a range of bonuses, depending on where the unique spawns. If it is Fanaticism, the bonus to minions is smaller than that of the unique.

Asking me to do the math is great if I have an idea about which monster to choose from. Take a drive through Hell, there's plenty of really damaging monsters around.
I only calculated Lister as having an average damage of 110, which isn't that high, while he's also got somewhere around 30,000 HP. Granted, it probably isn't fair because you can reliably depend on having your skeletons with Amp or Decrepify in the Throneroom.

One of the major problems of, or major bonus, of an Edge Thorns setup is that after you get Amplify Damage, you've basically maxed out your build's potential, as far as your input is concerned.
It isn't until Bramble that you can totally ramp up the Thorns damage (Edge + best Bramble = 1860% returned, before Amp).
Alternatively, this level of gear freedom is practically unheard of anywhere else. Wear all P.Topaz items and your killing speed is still where it was with anything else.

You CAN get Thorns without Edge. Act 2 mercenaries have it, but it will take until level 75 for him to get the same aura you can equip at level 25. Hah.

I'll work a bit more on my calc. I'd like to get something that'll output tons of variations based on monster damage, monster level and all those other things. Or I might just go play D2 and have fun...

(damn squid tried to eat my reply!)

 

[jamesL]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I like the Act 1 merc for arcane sanctury.

The fact that she can be behind the skeletons and still do damage with arrows is better to me than having might merc stuck behind them, standing there doing nothing.

Plus, I can cast the clay golem on a crowded platform across space that I would have to go through a portal to get to.
The I can cast amplify damage and have her shoot arrows while I and the rest of my skeletons are safe. All I need is to get one monster to die and then corpse explosion. Then I can go through the teleportal.

 

[HuggaBear]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

Well, now you are bringing up another sore subject for me.

I make post after post railing against how many regulars here make guides, or give advice to newer players, and every time it is always "Infinity this, Enigma that, Fort and Grief, eBotDz eDoom this and that yada yada". And from the tone of most of them, they seem to think you should have Enigma within the first 3-5 days of a new ladder.

So on your point about including fairly sweet low gear options like Edge in build guides, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What am I suppose to think when I read their recommendations, when I may have joined here in 2008 but I've played D2 itself since 1.08/1.09, and I have NEVER owned any of those runewords or top items? They make it sound like easy classes like Fishymancer can't be played without Enigma >.>

I thought this was just a game, something relaxing to do for maybe an hour after a hard days work. If most of them are running 24/7 bots across multiple accounts, trading with forum gold in that place I won't even bother to name, and getting online for minimum 6-10 hours every single day, then maybe they have a different experience than other players do. But why do they turn around and assume every regular player on Bnet has 100+HRs of wealth within days of a new ladder, and then state gear like Infinity/Enigma is pretty much required? /boggles the mind.

News Flash: Playing this decade old game with a simple class like Summoner Necro does not require Enigma... or even special gear. I am sure it can be done naked, and most likely already has been done. Stick your forum gold where it belongs, where the sun don't shine.

Because it's ridiculously easy to get?
Once my fishy reaches hell Baal and is of a good level I start doing large MF runs, hitting the easy and major high ilvl areas, trading low items for pgems and so on. It's easy to do, once you have enough you MF in a traderoom game, that way while you wait you're doing something useful.
A few big runs later I will normally have a good GC skiller, a few SC's and more than a few half decent items, enough to start progress on the better gear. Once I get an Enigma (which is ridiculously common within a few weeks of a ladder) I can really speed those runs up and hit the big bosses along the way, again in open trading games.
imo the fishy is one of the better MFers because they don't need the gear, they kill fast with minions and CE, they're safe and so on. The value of things like socketed items and charms is generally severely under rated, in my time playing I've seen very few high rune drops but have gathered more than enough charms and great socketables to trade for them.

Besides, most guides have a High, mid, basic gear thing going on. Fishy's can walk hell naked anyway

 

[jamesL]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

Because it's ridiculously easy to get?..

I don't believe that's not true at all

many people can't find high level runes,
http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=797799
and if so many people can't find them, I find it hard to believe that items made from them are that common and easy to get

A few big runs later I will normally have a good GC skiller

how many is a "a few"
I have never seen a skiller for a necro.
I've found gc skillers for martial arts, offensive auras, defensive auras, even cold skillers, but never a necro skiller of any kind.

 

[baldanders]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I'll work a bit more on my calc. I'd like to get something that'll output tons of variations based on monster damage, monster level and all those other things. Or I might just go play D2 and have fun...

Well I'd be interested to see the numbers. Perhaps I should give it a try. What James said about the sanctuary/lair makes sense. I've been tempted to make a fishy as they are so safe in HC, but the thought of doing sanctuary and lair without any gear has kept me from doing it (I'm not the most patient guy in the world.) Maybe it would be more tolerable with a rogue.

 

[zarniwoop]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

There has never been a ladder when I haven't been able to come up with an enigma within a few weeks to a month, if I really wanted one.

I've only ever seen two or three hrs in my entire career. I know how rare they are. You're unlikely to build your own self-found enigma.

But, usually everyone finds something with a lot of value in a month of play. If you don't, I would suggest you might not fully understand the values of all the things you find.

However, if I'm wrong about that, then I'd suggest that you have rotten luck.

 

[Knarlfist]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

However, if I'm wrong about that, then I'd suggest that you have rotten luck.

Or.... alternatively, just like I've already exactly stated.... some of us play for 30mins-1hr a couple times a week. Because this is just a game, not a career path.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand. The real point of contention between our point of views is this: I firmly believe that a higher percentage of D2 players than you would ever imagine, DON'T read forums like these... ever. Don't read guides, don't play 10+hours per day, and sometimes don't ever play in public games. Not to mention don't play Bnet online.

And most people in these forums, who assume that everyone playing D2 automatically read the forums as well, also believe everyone plays exactly the way they do. Which means they believe everyone logs as much playtime, and views this game as more of a chore and gives two shizes about accumulating 100's of HRs worth of wealth.


I've never once stated that it is impossible to accumulate the wealth needed to trade for those high runes. All I have ever stated is that your guide and almost all others I've read, assume that every D2 player will eventually gain that wealth. In actual fact it could be a very low percentage of players like maybe 20% that care enough to play/gather that much, yet your guides pretty much state the end goal has to be crud like Enigma.

I don't understand how many times I have to state one simple truth. Enigma is not required in ANY way to play a Summoner, I've played every ladder and even with my limited gameplay I've Patriarch'd and easily run thru Hell mode for drops, and not only never found more than one (recently) good rune but I've never accumulated the wealth to build those top r/w's. The one thing you will never seem to admit, is that there are more players like me... you just refuse to believe it. Yet if it is true and I turn out to be right, then your guide leaves out/makes feel inadequate a massive portion of the playerbase.

And your one line in the guide mentioning as a start "Viper, Arm of Leoric, Homonc, etc" doesn't count. That is not starter gear for first couple days of new ladder... for many players, that will probably be the endgame gear they end up in. Whether you think they should have freetime in their lives to play 10hours a day or not. Some of us play games exactly as they are meant to be played, as a hobby a couple hours total per week. Really... these points are simple, and shouldn't be this hard to understand.

 

[zarniwoop]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I don't see why this is so hard to understand. The real point of contention between our point of views is this: I firmly believe that a higher percentage of D2 players than you would ever imagine, DON'T read forums like these... ever. Don't read guides, don't play 10+hours per day, and sometimes don't ever play in public games. Not to mention don't play Bnet online.

And most people in these forums, who assume that everyone playing D2 automatically read the forums as well, also believe everyone plays exactly the way they do. Which means they believe everyone logs as much playtime, and views this game as more of a chore and gives two shizes about accumulating 100's of HRs worth of wealth.


I've never once stated that it is impossible to accumulate the wealth needed to trade for those high runes. All I have ever stated is that your guide and almost all others I've read, assume that every D2 player will eventually gain that wealth. In actual fact it could be a very low percentage of players like maybe 20% that care enough to play/gather that much, yet your guides pretty much state the end goal has to be crud like Enigma.

I don't understand how many times I have to state one simple truth. Enigma is not required in ANY way to play a Summoner, I've played every ladder and even with my limited gameplay I've Patriarch'd and easily run thru Hell mode for drops, and not only never found more than one (recently) good rune but I've never accumulated the wealth to build those top r/w's. The one thing you will never seem to admit, is that there are more players like me... you just refuse to believe it. Yet if it is true and I turn out to be right, then your guide leaves out/makes feel inadequate a massive portion of the playerbase.

And your one line in the guide mentioning as a start "Viper, Arm of Leoric, Homonc, etc" doesn't count. That is not starter gear for first couple days of new ladder... for many players, that will probably be the endgame gear they end up in. Whether you think they should have freetime in their lives to play 10hours a day or not. Some of us play games exactly as they are meant to be played, as a hobby a couple hours total per week. Really... these points are simple, and shouldn't be this hard to understand.

I wrote this guide for people that DO read forums as anything else would be incredibly silly.

I am a player like you. I haven't even got to level 20 this ladder. I have loved ones and an incredibly demanding job. This post was written quite some time ago to accomplish two things:

1. To give people a reasonable picture of gear they can get up and running in if they are new players with little fuss other than some pgems. If this is their end game, that's fine. I make no judgments.

2. To give a picture of what I believe is optimal for an effective magic running fishymancer minus a lot of the fiddly bits. If I spend more time on this part of the guide, its because most of the questions that are posted again and again come about in this area of the guide (skills, etc).

I state that IF YOU WANT TO TRULY BE EFFECTIVE, you will need an enigma. That is fact and if you don't like it, I accept your opinion. I in no way am intending to make you or anyone feel inadequate. We all choose what to do with our free time. I personally am choosing to play essentially no D2 this ladder so far. I stand by what I've written and if you choose to feel I was critiquing the life choices of anyone, then I hereby correct your mistake.

You can play your summoner any way you wish and have a great time and finish the game. This was written for people that constantly post on this forum "how do I get started and then how do I squeeze every ounce out of my mf effectiveness" or something closely approximating that.

If you have suggestions or anything constructive to offer such as "here's what I would like to see from a guide", by all means I'd love to hear them. I'm being serious. I'd welcome a chance to make this post offer more than it does.

 

[baldanders]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

I kind of agree with both of you, but... :sits back and makes popcorn: This should be fun.

 

[Kretschmer]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

If you want to use thorns and revives, do a google search for "corrupted televangelist." Thereare guides here and at BB. Much more fun than a fishymancer!

For those of us that play untwinked, enigma is rather unlikely on any given character.

 

[Yogirat]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

It looks like Nightfish has updated his guide. I think everyone should read it again.
http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798047

 

[Knarlfist]

Re: New Ladder - Fishymancer Questions Answered

Zarn, there is no ill will intended... but going to that length to state you aren't even really playing this ladder season, just drives the point home even more.

You aren't (mostly) playing, but you will make dang sure you find your old guide and bump it up to "show" new players how Summoners need to be made and to help avoid the slew of questioning posts? What if these players are like you, and are barely lvl20 and just screwing around mostly disinterested? What if they are like me, and have played every ladder but never once owned an Enigma?

I guess it just seems your guide (and most others I've read) doesn't give players much hope. I am sure they would much rather read the truth, which is that you can play Summoners completely naked and is the least-gear dependent build there is. People mentioning gear like Enigma in their guides should be saying it's only for the rich/massively bored players with way too much time on their hands and nothing else to do with their accumulated wealth.

But it's no big deal - nothing is going to effect your opinion anyways, so it's not worth bantering over this issue any more. I am always going to feel that your guide would be better suited to players if you had a more pronounced section for avg player end-game gear, and a discussion about how Enigma can enhance the build for the wealthy but is in no way needed to succeed in Hell Mode. I know you will never admit as much, but at least your guide has a couple of important lines like telling them to put 20 in RS,SM,CE