Tournaments: How to increase participation?

[Vang]

Hello!

Seems we are hitting a snag for participation in some of the tournaments, although we are getting decent turnouts maybe we can somehow turn the dial back 10 or so years ago during our peak?

What are the ideas to increase?

• Themes with simple rules (Green/Blue/Gold with envy for example)
• Random (such as @Babyhell March or the Random tournament)
• Class specific tournaments? (The Chuckers! A barbarian axe throwing tournament of yelling and shouting
  "I will send this axe right through Diablo's thick skull! Ha! I can best you Ymir! I will not only send it through Diablo's skull but it will split Baal in two!"

I made a post in the discord general channel with a link to this post, so if you came from there and got ideas or maybe you never heard of the SPF and are interested awesome!

So, the biggest thing is what drives you not to participate?

• No interest, it is the SPF for a reason.
• Life and I'm much older
• Theme of a tournament
• Additional Rules (For example if it is single pass only, I don't participate because it isn't my playstyle)
• Other?

Let me know and thanks in advance for the replies!

 

[maxicek]

Normally too many other projects for me. In the past the single pass thing has put me off, it is too dependent on the RNG.

My Random Barb is stalled in A4 Normal. Currently it is PvP > UT99er > Random Barb > Other builds.

 

[Babyhell]

Life and I'm much older

Yeah basically, with all it carries...

I would love to have an entry in much of the tournaments with very specific rules, where Diablo is the placeholder of the activity, but not necessarily defining it, but well usually those are really time consuming, and when you don't have time to move forward and cannot be into the other players' flow, just reading updates, sometimes it can be...well I'll lack the correct word in english, but you get the idea, "you want but you can't".

However it is in my way to play needed to keep me in, I can't be just repeating things without serious changes and specific rules fit my needs.

Too restrictive rules can be a no go for me too (class specific with added rules kinda seal things), I do prefer community events with variety of flavours, either for journey following in the running threads, or for theorycrafting before class choice, and during the journey.

Some things like the Zod-God or El-Mortal are something like a pretext, basically the interest is limited to some showcasing imo, but with added restrictions it can turn interesting in planning things.

Well, I already shared a bit of the philosophy. But it is basically related to the community and diversity of the activities... like... don't you agree @D2DC ?

Spoiler: Tagging people

@d2lover @Skjolde @snickersnack
@Noodle @coju @Gorny @Pyrotechnician @Leopold Stotch

 

[D4di56lu3]

I know that I am not the person with the answers to this thread, mostly because I joined the SPF to participate in the tournaments and prioritise all my gaming to tournaments (heck it says a lot about my available gaming time…)
So IF we should increase the amount of participants, perhaps we should try to lire* in more of the lurkers?

A Lurkers tournament, imagine the writeup of that

I don’t know if a tournament could be tailored to ease lurkers into the club, but it could be fun.

*Edit: we should lure the lurkers not lire the lurkers…

 

[NorthDakota]

I haven't really ever participated in any tournaments. Usually I'll take a look through the rules and they seem like I can't just hop in and get going after work. there's all sorts of complicated things I have to watch out for while playing through like after every act I gotta do some stuff and have someone roll for something and switch what I'm doing or take off some gear or any number of things and I kinda just look at the rules for a bit and then leave . Too stressful. Plus I got a tiny lizard brain.

I guess I'd like to do something with people. Real life always hits real hard though. I've signed up for and dropped out of mfos in the past and those are about as simple as they get. I dropped just because real life stuff. So I'm not sure if this thread really applies to me but I like the idea of something simple.

 

[Cattleya]

For me, it is 100% about time. At least for me, 2022 basically asked 2021 to hold its beer, and it looks like less video game time is going to be the new normal. (Although hopefully not as bad as January.)

That TC3 tournament looked so very tempting, but I knew I couldn't commit to it. I managed to sneak in maybe 10 hours of video game time in the last month.

 

[Miron]

For me, the reasons not to participate/leave tournament will be:

1. Complicated rules - this one is the most important.
2. Life and I'm much older - play time is more restricted and since my preferred style is single-pass (really time consuming and sometimes quite boring = slow going) I can't really compete and motivation is dropping.
3. Theme/class restriction - less chance to participate in a tournament that favor class I don't like to play.

Some ideas to improve participation:

- simple rules
- short time frame/limits (short tasks or limit it to few weeks)
- allow team play. I know it's a tournament but without participation....

 

[d2lover]

Were there a lvl 9 HC tournament?

 

[Babyhell]

allow team play

Interesting point. You mean at the core of it, not like in MFO where teaming is a side addition?

 

[Miron]

Interesting point. You mean at the core of it, not like in MFO where teaming is a side addition?

I meant more like MFO with another scoring system. It can be the core too but may become a restriction if someone can't join because time difference or something alike.

 

[snickersnack]

So, the biggest thing is what drives you not to participate?

• No interest, it is the SPF for a reason.
• Life and I'm much older
• Theme of a tournament
• Additional Rules (For example if it is single pass only, I don't participate because it isn't my playstyle)
• Other?

Hmmm. Well, I'm not really competitive, so tournaments have never interested me much. I did 'join' one, but I never even created the characters (it was the 3-legged race, iirc). Also, a tournament sounds restrictive, like a chore or work, and I have plenty of that already.

Lack of time is a factor, I guess. I probably play D2 a couple hours a day on average, but almost all of that is wind-down time. I think time spent on a tournament couldn't be for winding down the day, at least not for me, and then I'm not sure when that would happen. Weekends only?

I think maybe the biggest thing for me right now is that there are plenty of things to do in D2 since I'm doing a pseudo-restart in D2R. There are so many runewords I don't have (or have never had) and so many builds I haven't tried, but want to. I just started a spearzon yesterday.

 

[D2DC]

For me, the reasons not to participate/leave tournament will be:

1. Complicated rules - this one is the most important.
2. Life and I'm much older - play time is more restricted and since my preferred style is single-pass (really time consuming and sometimes quite boring = slow going) I can't really compete and motivation is dropping.
3. Theme/class restriction - less chance to participate in a tournament that favor class I don't like to play.

Some ideas to improve participation:

- simple rules
- short time frame/limits (short tasks or limit it to few weeks)
- allow team play. I know it's a tournament but without participation....

I'll echo a lot of what Miron said. Most of the time I see a new tournament thread pop up, and then by the time I'm halfway through reading the intro post I'm completely lost.

It's probably not as bad as it seems, and once you've entered a few tournament characters, it'll probably seem a lot simpler. But, for the uninitiated it looks quite daunting. I feel like I'd need a lawyer by my side to constantly remind me, "Don't do that! You'll violate article 3.4 subsection F!"

I noticed a few people commenting on "competitions" like the MFO. I don't believe that is what @Vang is asking about, correct? He's asking more for participation in the long-term tournaments like the Random Tournament etc. #2, being older and having less D2 time kinda limits me competing in the MFO/RFO competitions, but the slower-paced long-term tournaments should be up my alley.

 

[snickersnack]

I noticed a few people commenting on "competitions" like the MFO. I don't believe that is what @Vang is asking about, correct? He's asking more for participation in the long-term tournaments like the Random Tournament etc. #2, being older and having less D2 time kinda limits me competing in the MFO/RFO competitions, but the slower-paced long-term tournaments should be up my alley.

I'll have you know that I'm just one person. I don't look good in clothes made for "a few people."

Movie references aside, yeah, that is partly what I had in mind. In fact, I was going to mention the MFO/RFO, but I deleted that before posting. Maybe the prospect of a "tournament" is too daunting? It just makes me think of all the extra time that I don't have. Maybe that's a dumb reason, but I think it's a factor for me.

 

[jamesixgun]

I started playing D2 in 2001 and found the SPF in 2007 or 2008. The SPF and tournaments were great friends of mine in 2008-2010, just after grad school when I was unemployed. Then, once I found a job, I popped into the SPF a few times, but I got tired of hacking together the ability to play on OSX and got interested in other things. Then got married and all free time went out the window for many years.
D2R got me excited enough to Bootcamp Windows onto my Mac. Sadly, it's painful playing it (shut down OSX, start up Windows, and then watch temps climb dangerously high).
Still, I found the new SPF and joined the last Random tournament. Died at about level 7 due to sloppy play. I reverted back to 1.14 and went to restart, but dusted off an old Sorceress and pushed her into Nightmare. Made my first ever Spirit sword. One day, I noticed my old Bliss Version Switcher and since I had Windows, I decided to get it working: upgraded to Cactus and started playing a 1.00 Barbarian... Then the wife got mad, work got busy again, and I put D2 away again. I really got interested again in the last few days watching MrLlama test the 2.4 MA Assassin... will I finally be able to play a proper dual claw MA Sin? (Tiger Strike/Dragon Tail and Aggressin are of course proper, but I've looked longingly at FoF/CoT/BoI for almost two decades.)
Given wife and work, it's doubtful.

tl;dr: I'm old now, and just don't make time to play like I used to. I still might go again on the random sorceress roll from last fall, but I really can't commit to participating long term in much of anything (well, except my job and marriage, and I struggle even there).
Apologies. I know this doesn't answer the question at all.

 

[LouB]

I've been back about 10 months and I am currently In my first tournament, TC3. The main reason I joined was that I would like to complete a self grail and this was an opportunity to work on it. Also, I have been creating new builds since coming back and the TC3 tourney gave me a chance to start a couple of characters.

I have participated in an MFO years ago and while it was fun my character was not in a class with the big guns and those builds are not once that really interest me, so little chance to really complete.

As with several others the rules of some of these make my head spin. But I will also add that some of the rule intense tourneys are very clever and creative.

So,Here are a few ideas that might help
1. tournaments that help people reach a short or long term goal
2. Tournaments with divisions for different level or classes of characters. Maybe an MFO/RFO with teleporting and no teleporting divisions or MF limits - none, under-250, unlimited for example
3. Time limited per character, but the tourney is long enough that those with limited time availability can join.

 

[PhineasB]

I find the really complicated rules a barrier to entering. Green and Gold are simple rules, and I’d definitely be up for another iteration of that (or a Swedish themed tourney of only Blue and Yellow?).

A disconnect seems to occur for rules that allow ease of entry and rules to make it really challenging. The idea of single-passing another guardian with “easy” rule set likely isn’t excited to some. But the more complicated and restrictive rules are likely off-putting to people who haven’t done any or many tourneys. I don’t have a good solution to offer unfortunately.

I personally don’t like the idea of a tourney that will require a major investment of time to get to Hell but the rules may completely hamstring the character either so s/he’s likely to die at Ancients or the last few acts will be a huge slog. A rule set that seems to present decent odds of most of Hell being a tedious chore but the time investment to get there high enough to not give up is tough for me to dive into.

But I have really enjoyed the tourneys I’ve joined, and have single-passed a few other characters that could easily have been tourney characters. So I would also welcome a lively tourney scene, even though I couldn’t commit to participating in every one that isn’t too complicated for my taste.

All of the above is, however, qualified by my focus on untwinked 99ers. Tourneys have been a great break from that when I’ve been ready for a break or side-project for small breaks. But I’m focused on finishing my Druid right now and can’t spare the time I have available for D2 for other projects given that goal.

But maybe after March!

 

[Maltatai]

For me it's the time. I both have too many other D2 projects running and switch between D2 and a few other games so I don't feel attracted to comitting myself to a tournament. On the other hand, you might say that I then obviously isn't enough of a tournament player to be that excited about participating.

One variation I have never seen is a tournament with the goal of protecting your mercenary throughout the game, or as much as possible. Since many veteran players are now parents it should be pure routine to keep wandering companions from acting in suicidally dangerous ways... A quite simple goal to keep in mind, but harder to achieve.

 

[Vang]

Thank you everyone that replied so far. Lots of great feedback and some really common answers, but it is good to see what is going on. Couple ideas that popped in my head based on feedback would be:

The Lowest Destroyer

• Will you be the lowest level to achieve this feat? A separate scoring system for sorceress.
• Could expand this to each Act. Running to Andariel and having the lowest experience could be interesting (These could be timed or have X runs total of a class over a week- or month-long event)

The Protector

• Lowest Mercenary deaths
• Could be modified that each time your mercenary dies you have to abandon equipment as well or that you have to hire a different Act mercenary.

D2R SPF Season editions

• A few mentions of grouping, could we find ourselves with a self-contained group? I'll be honest I'm not too keen on HC for D2R in online play, but I would be down for grouping like the old battle.net group ran.
• Could do a group tournament and the real tournament starts at level XX (think it is 76 on SP Full Clear) at beginning of Hell that would be back to Single Player until Guardian.

Timed events/goals

• I liked the division ideas that @LouB mentioned.
• One of my favorite gaming times happened during PoE beta and all the 4 hr play sessions that had lined up. Possible iterations would be 30 minute, 1 hr, 90, 2hr or 4hr highest experience total by class. (Could be restrictive by start times and end times with screenshots with time stamps now possible with the clock introduction)

Envy type

• Gear from a type (magical/crafted/rare/etc - Get pretty good participation. I got the Blues (blue restrictions minus quest rewards and 3 potential other slots from personalization)

Rules adjustments

• Modifying rules to be more friendly (S&E for example for HC)
• Too the Ancients for characters that want to untiwnked to 99 give full credit.

Okay that is what I got so far! Again, thank you for the responses.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this! Interesting read.


I suspect that most D2 players are hoarders, so why not ask Rush to include achievements on the site for tournament participation?

Also, I think that opening up tournaments for multi pass was a great idea already and helped participation numbers quite a bit.

I have to admit I am one of those who likes complex rules (see Ability Scroll Sept Tournament) but understand completely that most people want the rules to be easy to understand so that they can start the character immediately. I very much like the planning aspect though, because that is something I can do while doing other stuff, whereas I can't game and do the dishes xD

Let's take the random tournaments for example. I really like the changes in the last few installments, but I think the rules are complex and it was easier in the earlier iterations. Even if someone found the rules too complicated they could just say "roll me a character" and then had their skills and items handed to them for the entire play through. The current version needed you to invest more time in planning because of the changes with difficulties etc.

Or March of the doomed: great tournament! The thing is that the Baal rule (and partially the seal rule) complicates the rules very much - they would be very very easy to understand without those additional rules. (I like the rules as they are BTW, but from people's comments I thought it was worth mentioning)

Maybe do a beginner's ruleset and a veteran ruleset for tournaments? I think it is not so much about the competition anymore anyways, but more about the shared experience. I wouldn't mind if someone chose the "easier" version.

What

 

[lizard]

Great input. Main limiting factor for me is time, as for other people. Gaming time is precious and timed event with predictable achievable commitments, such as TC3 are ideal for me.

I did really enjoy my March of the Doomed run and plan a second one, once I have more time.

One idea to increase participation is maybe to open certain tournaments to collaboration. I know from Dwarf Fortress forums, where they share savegames between participants, e.g. play X amount of hours and pass on the savefile to the next person. This would achieve a couple of things: a. You know what you are getting into timewise, e.g. play one act singlepass and pass it on or X hours.
b. increases interaction in the thread. It will be fun to plan the build together, but in the end it is up to the player.
c. you dont have to start from scratch every time and can jump in at later difficulties.

There are certainly downsides, e.g. fear of killing a character, but i think the journey is the destination with these kind of tournaments and you could always opt for SC as well.

I think it could be an option to solve the time commitment problem.

Would love for example to play a random tourney char this way.