Time for an updated CL/FO guide

[zarniwoop]

Time for an updated CL/FO guide

I think its time for an updated CL/FO guide.

I have tons of questions and the guide is pretty old.

I am pretty unclear how to disperse my stat points etc. I'm not sure I agree with all his choices.

I was wondering if any veteran CL/FO'ers would be up to the task of a mini guide covering
1. Equipment
2. Stat point dispersal
3. skill dispersal... there's a few tough choices.

Thanks.

 

[ale beer two]

Im also making an CL/FO sorc and absolutely loving her. Amazing killing speed.

I dont claim to be a sorc expert, but i will detail my plans and the 'experts' can rip them apart or you might see better ways of doing things.

Equipment - Im getting tals set to begin with. Once the good rw's become cheap as chips I might look at upgrading. Tals offers some very very good set bonuses and is definately end game gear imho. 2 x FCR rings with resists on them.

Stats - same as 90% of all builds

str -enuf for gear
dex - none
life - everything else
mana - none

Im not building a melee sorc so dont need block.

skill dispersal.

OK, this im not convinced on. Chain Lightning looks a very very crappy spell even in mid nm with near 20 odd points in the lightning tree. FO on the other hand is owning everything in sight, i have about 30 in the cold tree. Im hoping that somehow the light damage will miracously pick-up very soon, but im scared. :azn:

What tough choices do you face?

 

[zarniwoop]

FO is a "crap, this mob is lightning immune" skill. I put 1 in prereqs and 20 in FO and 1 in cold mastery and that's it.

I'm killing in ACT 1 Hell easily with CL at level 66 (non-light immunes).

My choices are do I finish the last 3 points of lightning and FO at level 82, and then put points in telekenisis and 1 in ES? Do I instead pump a light synergy? 20 in Cold mastery? Not sure.

I'm not a sorc expert, but I do know that by and large, zero block is just asking to die. My question is - is 42 (spirit monarch) enough? Or should I chuck it and go whitsans? Does losing the 2 skill points really matter?

Finally, where do I stick my stat points? Obviously I need a ton of dex if I go max block. The big question is, how much mana will a CL sorc need? Does that change if 1 pt ES with 15 in telekenesis is recommended?

We really need a new guide. None of this is addressed.

 

[ale beer two]

I'd love to know what points you have in the light tree.

If CL is your main skill, than I personally would add points to its synergy, to make my main attack as strong as possible.

I doubt zero block is achievable either when using a shield, but i see your point. With annie, torch and other stuff, dex will be a reasonable number and still give 50% block. This is not my first sorc so im improving at keeping my distance from mobs. I rarely die, and when i do its due to lack of FHR.

Most sorcs use spirit as sorcs damage goes up considerably with more skills. Take the skills imo.

Mana and ES is a different kettle of fish and a different build I believe.

 

[zarniwoop]

20 CL
17 Lightning
20 LM
1 in some prereqs. I have 1 in ES. I'm waiting to see what to do with it.
1 in cold prereqs up to FO.
1 in CM
about 10 in FO so far.
1 in warmth.


And to answer you a bit, each HARD point in synergies boost CL 4 percent.

That's not super. Its not as crappy as LF (amazon), but it sucks.

I'm wondering if it is better to beef up FO which gets HUGE returns from cold mastery, or pump the hell out of telekenesis and create a sorc that is VERY hard to kill.

EDIT: MY biggest concern is how many pts in energy do I need with and without infinity?

 

[AnimeCraze]

You are getting more than just 2 skills with spirit. You are getting FCR, resist, and FHR. Just the FHR alone does a lot for your sorc, making it a lot easier to tele in and out of packs. However, blocking with that this is just asking to die. Anyways, your main lightning skill should be both lightning and CL, just like how meteorb sorcs uses fireball and meteor.

If you have infinity, what's the point of making an FO/CL sorc? Go pure lightning and kill them all.

Tal's set + spirit should provide enough mana for your teleing needs.

 

[sirpoopsalot]

I'm not a sorc expert, but I do know that by and large, zero block is just asking to die.

Actually, medium-high (or higher) block with a crappy-blocking shield (like Spirit) is more of a recipe to die, IMO.

You're life is likely to simply be so low that you're stuck in hit recovery any time you don't block an attack, and every blow received will take a relatively high percentage of your life. With Spirit, IMO you should say "to hell with blocking! I need life."

... that's my opinion, of course. Others differ.


*****
I've done 3 different CL-based sorcs (2 FO-variants, and a level93 Firewall variant as one of my first serious D2 builds). I'm not volunteering to write a guide, but here's some basic pointers from my experience:

Early Game:
1. Lightning and (especially) ChainLightning are mana-hungry spells. If you want to go with a lightning attack early in the game, you'll want to focus a lot effort on +mana, +mana regeneration, and +mana per kill equipment (3xPerfect Sapphire helm and armour, Manald Heal rings, Insight merc, Lizards/Snakes/Serpent charms, Tir runes in your weapon/shield, etc.)

2. Likewise, Frozen Orb is powerfull enough that many people recommend that you focus on maxing that as quickly as possible (with one point in CM)... and then use FO as your main killing-skill through Normal and NM difficulties, while you're building your lightning skills for hell difficulty. About the time that FO starts to really slow down in late NM, your lightning skills should be really starting to shine).

3. because CL is such a mana-drainer, I prefer to focus more on Lightning during the early stages - Lightning takes about 50% as much mana as CL, and Lightning does roughly 100% more damage than CL (by average). If you're working with FO already, that means you already have a good crowd-killer. And teleport is still one of your best crowd-control skills anyways, so you can definitely get away with a low-level CL for a long time.

4. Generally, during the early game, increasing your overall mana pool is more effective than increasing your mana regeneration. Once you get a large mana pool, mana regeneration starts to perform better (I don't know where the cut-off is though).


Blocking vs. No-Block.
... the eternal debate. Use the search function for the previous 1673 discussions on this, since all of valid points have been covered quite extensively... there's no point in hijacking another thread with more on this, and I'd be just as content if any guide took this stance as well.


The Countess:
I already wrote a detailed guide about dedicated Countess running, and a large portion of the guide is focused on running with a CL/FO sorc. The guide is focused on single-player, but I'm confident I didn't omit anything of significance in regards to Countess runs with this build. The guide: http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536471



... there's more, but I'm already loosing interest in CL/FO sorcs again. They're definitely a fun build, and very viable PvM with even modest equipment.

 

[Relativity1]

I am about to make a CL/FO sorc also.

What I don't understand is how he can possibly neglect the use of tals set so readily. Let me do a comparison...

Skills (base):
20 CL
20 L
20 LM
10 CB

Using his "ideal" gear:
Shako
Vipermagi
Maras
Arachs
2x SoJ
Occy
SS
Wartravs
Magefist
Storch and anni

Yielding +15 all skills and 6122 CL damage (max).

Then I compared this setup to full tals (with same rings/boots/gloves/charms/shield), and well, you can see the results:

Monster Resistance	Full Tals	Uniques
0	                 6367.55	6122
10	                 5813.85	5509.8
20	                 5260.15	4897.6
30                       4706.45	4285.4
40                       4152.75	3673.2
50                       3599.05	3061

With 9x skillers:

Monster Resistance	Full Tals	Uniques
0	                    9499	9391
10	                    8673	8451.9
20	                    7847	7512.8
30	                    7021	6573.7
40	                    6195	5634.6
50	                    5369	4695.5

So as you can see, regardless of the amount of +skills you have with the other build, full tals will always come out on top for CL.

However, I'm sure this would all change if you had an infinity merc... but that isn't the point.

 

[AnimeCraze]

I would use griff and sacrifice 1 +skill, and this will render Tal's inferior in terms of lightning damage. There's also death's fathom, which will render Tal's inferior in cold damage. You can also use either a crafted GG caster ammy and use enigma or CoH to boost your damage even further. With that, you can even reach the 117 BP while wearing the SoJ's. In short, Tal's is not the optimal setup for CL/FO.

However, if you can afford griff + fathom, you shouldn't be building a CL/FO to start with, and just build a GG light sorc instead.

 

[Relativity1]

I would use griff and sacrifice 1 cold skill, and this will render Tal's inferior in terms of lightning damage. There's also death's fathom, which will render Tal's inferior in cold damage. Of course, if you can afford griff + fathom, you shouldn't be building a CL/FO to start with.

In terms of affordability, survivability, mf, and damage, tals beats out anything uniques have to offer.

Tal's is the optimal build for a MF'ing CL/FO (which is what the guide in question is about).

Edit: My mad editing skillz > yours.

 

[AnimeCraze]

In terms of affordability and mf, tals beats out anything uniques have to offer.

Fixed that for you.

I have no doubt that Tal's is the best in terms of price:value ratio, as my (now) NL meteorb uses it. I am just pointing out that you can indeed get better damage and cast rate with uniques and rares, with similar survivability. (Whoever that does it must be crazy though, IMO.)

Sadly, I still prefer meteorb over FO/CL, after trying them both on full Tal's. You need to use FCR rings to reach 117, for one.

 

[Relativity1]

Fixed that for you.

I have no doubt that Tal's is the best in terms of price:value ratio, as my (now) NL meteorb uses it. I am just pointing out that you can indeed get better damage and cast rate with uniques and rares, with similar survivability.

Sorry, I meant overall.

Overall, including all factors such as survivability, damage, mf, and affordability, nothing uniques can offer will beat out tals.

And if someone wanted a pure damage CL/FO, like you implied yourself, "what's the point?"

Pre-edit: My preview editing skillz are mad too! BAHAHAHA

 

[Jek]

Overall, including all factors such as survivability, damage, mf, and affordability, nothing uniques can offer will beat out tals.

Define affordability...

You can both make a cheaper rare/unique/runeword set that's almost as good, and obviously a more expensive that is better. Since the release of "Spirit" I don't think it really cuts it as "best for price" anymore...

 

[Relativity1]

Define affordability...

You can both make a cheaper rare/unique/runeword set that's almost as good, and obviously a more expensive that is better. Since the release of "Spirit" I don't think it really cuts it as "best for price" anymore...

Please do tell me a build using uniques and runewords that's almost as good as full tals for mf, damage, resists, life, mana etc... while being equal or cheaper in price than tals.

 

[Jek]

Please do tell me a build using uniques and runewords that's almost as good as full tals for mf, damage, resists, life, mana etc... while being equal or cheaper in price than tals.

Something in the likes of...

Skin of Vipermagic [PT]
Harlequin's Crest [PT]
Spirit Shield
Spirit Sword
Magefist
Rare +2 sorc resist ammy
Rare resist/MF belt
Rare resist/MF boots
Rare resist/MF rings (mix with FCR as needed)

If a Tal sorc use the same rings/shields like a rare/unique/runeword sorc I doubt she'd be able to reach as good a FCR and FHR... And thusly get a much lower speed (which would lower her DPS considerable)

 

[Noite Escura]

To the OP:
1. Spirit is not for blocking. Period. Not only it requires an monstrous amount of dexterity on top of the already high str it needs, it also don't have Faster Block Rate, meaning you'll get stuck in block lock until death, with low life.
2. Don't go for Energy Shield on a dual tree build, specially if you don't know what you're doing. Hell is already too hard having to split your skills along 2 diff elements, you don't need another point hungry skill to make it even worse. Your best defense is being able to kill everything that comes your way.
As for Tal's, it's viable, though it's really more suited to a Cold/Fire build, since Lightning requires higher FCR to be effective and Tal set is short of that. I'm not saying is bad, but it doesn't have the edge over other setups as it has in Fire/Cold.

 

[sirpoopsalot]

As for Tal's, it's viable, though it's really more suited to a Cold/Fire build, since Lightning requires higher FCR to be effective and Tal set is short of that. I'm not saying is bad, but it doesn't have the edge over other setups as it has in Fire/Cold.

QFT.

I like my FCR breakpoints, and Tal's doesn't provide the best options in that regard. It's still a good setup, but as NE mentioned, the advantage over uniques and rares isn't as definite (especially if you can get your hands on a Griffon's Eye).

 

[zarniwoop]

So if I have 42 block rate at the moment due to stat points in dex, scrap the sorc and start over? She's ruined?

What you're saying makes sense. I won't really have much room for fhr. Should I just delete and start again?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't I just get stuck in hit recovery until death if not in block recovery?

 

[AnimeCraze]

Something in the likes of...

Skin of Vipermagic [PT]
Harlequin's Crest [PT]
Spirit Shield
Spirit Sword
Magefist
Rare +2 sorc resist ammy
Rare resist/MF belt
Rare resist/MF boots
Rare resist/MF rings (mix with FCR as needed)

If a Tal sorc use the same rings/shields like a rare/unique/runeword sorc I doubt she'd be able to reach as good a FCR and FHR... And thusly get a much lower speed (which would lower her DPS considerable)

Tal's with spirit, magefist, and 2x FCR rings should reach the 117 BP. There is no need for Tal's to use the exact same setup in the rest of the gear slots. Anyways, you will find that this setup doesn't do so well when you face Mephy (as he has 75 resist all).

 

[zarniwoop]

I went home and tried this out.

My block rate is about 39 percent.

Once I get hit, I am stuck essentially forever and I die.

Now, my question is - which has a slower return:

Block recovery base or hit recovery base?

By base I mean assuming both of them are at their base levels?

Is it easier for me to extricate from a hit or a block?