2023 Spring RFL Sign-Up and Running Thread: Round 2 (Moo Moo Farm)

[Excalibur]

Made the final tweaks to my Cow Javazon. I will farm with Thunderstroke this time to check it out.
First TZ tomorrow is Cows! I will try not to miss those whenever available!

Good luck to everyone.

 

[ffs]

GL HF everyone, gogogo!

Just in time for round 2 to start I managed to finally get my hands on a Griffon's Eye (through dubious means).

Apart from enabling a ton of builds, for Mosaic Sin this allowed the transition to a 102 FCR setup.

Here's how cow runs look with her on P7:

Still learning the map and generally the proper playstyle (herding amount, what group size to kill etc). But yeah, pretty clear it's a super strong build and even more fun with 102 FCR.

Gear:

Spoiler

Griffon's (Cham)
Enigma
2x Mosaic
2x FCR rings with mana, life, resists...
Craft amulet +1 MA, 19 FCR, 18@
Arach
Magefist
Waterwalk - non-upped... typical kicker boots

+2 Sin, 17+ FCR amulet would be optimal but well...

 

[maxicek]

What charges are you using @ffs ? Have you tried running without any CoT charges?

I'm sitting out this round for I think the first time ever. Good luck everyone running.

 

[Excalibur]

Found my first Qualifier! Thunderstroke looks good so far.

 

[ffs]

What charges are you using @ffs ? Have you tried running without any CoT charges?

I'm sitting out this round for I think the first time ever. Good luck everyone running.

Shame you can't run :/

Currently 2x PS and 3x everything else (including CS and TS). In round 1 I've tried some combinations of charges but kept getting back to using everything. Haven't really experimented much for cows specifically yet. NHD interference between the various projectiles is definitely a thing, but so far I didn't find a combination that really improved gameplay overall. I'll try a few different approaches still, although it's not like Mosaic needs higher damage output anyway.

 

[Nano]

There was a blizzard forum post about NHD interference between the 4 MA skills with NHD. Not sure I can link it since the post contains clips of modded D2R, even if it was done only for testing purposes.

From a single hit, CoT 2, CoT 3, and PS 2/3 didn't seem like it interfered with each other to a large degree, so I would still use CoT with PS 2 in cows.

However, it was the next part that was dubious to me- using slower claws for 4 frame kicks to avoid NHD on successive hits from DTalon.
The way I understand the 4 frame NHD is this: let's say frame 1 is the kick action frame. Then frames 2, 3, 4, and 5 are in NHD. With 4 frame kick, the 2nd kick action frame would be on frame 5, which is still in NHD. I've seen the advice to go 4 frame DTalon instead of 3 frame DTalon from multiple sources, but it doesn't seem to avoid NHD either way? If 4 frame is not better than 3 frame with regards to NHD, then you are just losing DPS from the non-NHD damage sources.

Now, if the missiles are colliding with monsters for more than a single frame, then that is a different scenario to examine.

 

[ffs]

The way I understand the 4 frame NHD is this: let's say frame 1 is the kick action frame. Then frames 2, 3, 4, and 5 are in NHD. With 4 frame kick, the 2nd kick action frame would be on frame 5, which is still in NHD. I've seen the advice to go 4 frame DTalon instead of 3 frame DTalon from multiple sources, but it doesn't seem to avoid NHD either way?

My understanding is this: NHD only affects (and is triggered by) the released missiles. DTalon kicks themselves are not subject to it. So on frame 5 in your example, DTalon will work normally. Then following the 2nd kick more missiles are released, which (interference between them aside) will also not be subject to NHD since 4 frames have passed since they were last released. Based on this it made sense to me that with 4 frame kicks, the only "concern" is intereference between the missiles.

Personally I didn't test a 3 frame kick setup yet to compare, since I figured I wouldn't want to make the gear compromises to get the required IAS anyway. Perhaps you can try and observe the effect in-game.

Generally, the mechanics in play are so numerous and interacting in rather complicated ways, I quickly gave up trying to theorycraft. Just needs in-game testing with different approaches to see how they impact gameplay in practice and whether it results in faster/easier clear speed.

I just did a couple of runs without CoT charges as suggested by @maxicek, and indeed runs are very similar, despite much lower LCS damage when not using CoT. It seemed like depending on their distance to the Assassin, some monsters died faster while others took a bit longer. Overall it still seemed a tiny bit slower, but could just my initial impression based on this small sample size. So basically, yes there's some intereference between full CoT stack and PS 2, but not sure yet whether that means it's better to drop CoT.

 

[maxicek]

For my character (no Infinity, skillers, torch or annihilus yet) dropping CoT feels like it made no difference or was stronger. And it is less charging up.

@Nano I think Dragon Claw would be better than going to a 4FPA kick. The other thing is the NHD missiles take time to travel, so it is very complicated to calculate. It is from when the monster is hit, not when the attack is launched.

Missile - Basin Wiki

www.theamazonbasin.com

I plan on doing some experiments when I have more essences. I want to try without FoF and using TS/DTail too.

Shame you can't run :/

I want to concentrate on the Infinity, so LK meets my needs better. And for my trapper experience is more important than runes.

 

[ffs]

I want to concentrate on the Infinity, so LK meets my needs better. And for my trapper experience is more important than runes.

You are excused, I cannot not support LK running.

Why use Dragon Claw over 4 frame DTalon? I was surprised to see this being recommended in other places too. Overall damage output with DClaw is so much lower than DTalon (irrespective attack rate), I don't see why I'd generally use it rather than DTalon, at least for content where monsters have relatively high HP.

I have DClaw on LMB and do use it, but rather situationally. Namely when I know one hit/set of released charges will kill the target, but with DTalon there'd be a chance of wasting kicks/hitting air, losing time that could be spent teleporting. FWIW, I also tried dropping skillers to get down to 3 kicks with DTalon, but again I concluded I just lost damage, rather than improving things. In situations where there's a risk of me hitting air (i.e. killing something during the kick sequence), I just use Dragon Claw. Otherwise, overall gameplay with 4 kicks/4 frames seems very smooth to me.

 

[Kruemelmonschda]

4 hours in. Only one qualifier. Still using Fishyzon without fully synergized Lightning Fury. Gave her a Griffon's, Spirit and Enigma though and put CtA + Spirit in the 2nd Slot instead of a bow. Runs take about 6 minutes total at /p7. The missing Infinity probably makes a difference as does my playstyle. Typically not the fastest runner.

 

[Nano]

My understanding is this: NHD only affects (and is triggered by) the released missiles. DTalon kicks themselves are not subject to it. So on frame 5 in your example, DTalon will work normally. Then following the 2nd kick more missiles are released, which (interference between them aside) will also not be subject to NHD since 4 frames have passed since they were last released. Based on this it made sense to me that with 4 frame kicks, the only "concern" is intereference between the missiles.

Personally I didn't test a 3 frame kick setup yet to compare, since I figured I wouldn't want to make the gear compromises to get the required IAS anyway. Perhaps you can try and observe the effect in-game.

Generally, the mechanics in play are so numerous and interacting in rather complicated ways, I quickly gave up trying to theorycraft. Just needs in-game testing with different approaches to see how they impact gameplay in practice and whether it results in faster/easier clear speed.

I know the kicks themselves are not subject to NHD, so I am only referring to the missile spacing based on the kick frequency. For example, on a 4 frame DTalon, CoT 2 novas would be "casted" at a 4 frame frequency, but because the 4 frame NHD timer starts on the following frame, a monster can only be hit once every 5 frames. That means a 5 frame frequency kick would align perfectly and allow all the novas to hit a stationary target. I don't think 5 frame DTalon is possible with Mosaic anyways (the 20 IAS in the runeword is too high), but my point was to show 4 frame NHD doesn't translate to using 4 frame kicks.

From the IAS calculator that I'm using, any -30 or -20 claw (on the primary hand) with just the 20 IAS from Mosaic is already at 3 frame DTalon. Something slower like a suwayyah on the primary hand would take it down to 4 frames though. I'm also using a 102 FCR, Cham Griffon's setup which doesn't allow for any additional IAS like you mentioned, so it comes down to the primary claw base.

Agreed, the actual interaction between all the different missile types are too complicated in the end, and in game testing is really the best way to determine overall running efficiency.

@Nano I think Dragon Claw would be better than going to a 4FPA kick. The other thing is the NHD missiles take time to travel, so it is very complicated to calculate. It is from when the monster is hit, not when the attack is launched.

Missile - Basin Wiki

www.theamazonbasin.com

I haven't tested DC myself, but I've heard from others that on fastest DC attacks, the 2nd proc of missiles sometimes don't hit because of NHD. It shouldn't be too hard to test this though. I'll see if I can record some videos.

 

[ffs]

Just under 4 hours in as well. Better start than round 1 at least in terms of quantity, already got 6 qualifiers plus a Pul from Rakanishu.

For my character (no Infinity, skillers, torch or annihilus yet) dropping CoT feels like it made no difference or was stronger. And it is less charging up.

After trying both with and without CoT for 1-2 hours each, I gotta say it's the same to me. For now I'm running without CoT. Apart from charging up quicker it also means fewer animations. I am looking for a couple of white item bases (claws, staves..), and in particular for those it helps to reduce the light show a bit.

I suspected NHD from CoT novas was the culprit keeping CoT from contributing more to DPS output, it seemed to be the closer cows that tend to hang around a bit longer when using CoT. So for a bit I also tried using only 1st CoT charge, but that didn't make a noticeable difference either.

Worth noting I'm only running lvl 30 FoF because having good leech with CS is key to me. Also I only have +3 PS but no FoF/BoI on my claws. Perhaps having those at higher levels could make up for the NHD interference in melee range and again give CoT a slight edge.

I know the kicks themselves are not subject to NHD, so I am only referring to the missile spacing based on the kick frequency. For example, on a 4 frame DTalon, CoT 2 novas would be "casted" at a 4 frame frequency, but because the 4 frame NHD timer starts on the following frame, a monster can only be hit once every 5 frames.

Ah interesting, I misread your earlier post. That I just assumed to be aligned tbh, i.e. I thought 4 frame NHD meant novas released every 4 frames would hit. If the NHD timer indeed starts the following frame (and charges are released simultaneously with the kick) it of course makes sense what you're saying. Couldn't find a detailed source on this.

Also re attack rate, turns out I wasn't on 4 frame DTalon either but 3 frames as well. Somehow I thought when going from Runic to Feral mainhand I dropped a frame. My offhand Mosaic is Suwayyah, next time I run I'll try using it in main hand for 4 frames and check whether that makes any noticeable difference.

Curious to see/hear about you're testing and experiences with the build.

EDIT:
Just tried with Suwayyah as primary claw for a bit and the only thing I noticed was I got worse leech. So yeah, 4 frame DTalon indeed doesn't seem to help. Even if it reduces NHD issues in the background, there is no observable improvement in gameplay and leech alone is reason enough for me to go for faster kicks.

 

[Nano]

I recorded a few clips comparing 3 frame vs 4 frame dragon talon, using only CoT 2 charges since Nova is the easiest to observe. I start with some distance between the Assassin and the Cow to be kicked, this will delay the kick sequence with enough time to reposition my cursor to a nearby cow. The nearby cow will only take nova damage and not single target damage from kicks. It may help to slow down the video at a lower playback speed to observe the stepped decreases in cow hp.

The first 3 sequences are with GT setup, with 3/3/3/8 kicks.
Sequence 1 and 2 show 3 hits with nova, while sequence 3 show 2 hits.

The next (and last) 3 sequences are with Suwayyah setup, with 4/4/4/11 kicks.
Sequence 4 and 5 show 3 hits with nova, while sequence 6 show 2 hits.

Due to nova's wide damage range, it's possible that an additional hit does not translate to a visible reduction in the HP bar, but after testing about a dozen times each, the 3 hits seemed more common. If someone else can replicate this test or do a better one, that would be a good confirmation. I tried not hitting the nearby cow with the edge of the nova, since I've heard some novas can double hit as it slows down at the edge. I don't think the double hit applies to CoT 2 nova though. So how are 3 out of the 4 novas hitting?

This Amazon Basin page on strafe and next hit delay helped explain some mechanics behind missiles and NHD. Strafe and nova have the same velocity and both have 4 frame NHD, so there are some similarities in the comparison here. I created a table for Dragon Talon:



Depending on missile size/velocity and target size/velocity, the missile "contact" duration is a range. I used 1, 2, and 3 frame contact for the two testing scenarios. A green missile is a successful hit while a red missile is a missed hit due to NHD. The 4 black cells after the green collision cell represents the 4 frame NHD. I used this old post from jrichard to break down the dragon talon action frames.

With a 3 frame contact, 3 of the 4 novas would be able to successfully hit. The 4 frame kick does win in the 2 frame contact category, but loses in the 1 and 3 frame contact category. The vast majority of D2 monsters are size 2 or 3, so the 1 frame contact should be rare. Between the 2 frame or 3 frame contact, I'm not sure which would be more common due to all the variables involved.

Conclusion is that 4 frame kick is not demonstrably better than 3 frame kick with regards to 4 frame NHD spells. However, 4 frame kick is worse for everything else: Single target damage, FoF, BoI, leech, crushing blow, locked in place while kicking, etc.

 

[LouB]

All,

there are some very intersting posts in this thread that I fear will at best be buried if not lost for future interested parties. Specifically, the great work that several of you are doing on the Mosaic Sin. I think it is time that someone write up a Mosaic Sin guide and get it added to the Compendium sticky and that all the posts concerning the build in this thread get added to it.

That also goes for @ffs post about Metamorphosis, which is a runewords that I haven't heard much discussion about.

 

[maxicek]

I think it is time that someone write up a Mosaic Sin guide and get it added to the Compendium sticky and that all the posts concerning the build in this thread get added to it.

I'm planning on doing one when I feel I have enough info, I think a new thread is a good idea for that. @Nano @ffs any objections if I move these posts to a new thread?

 

[ffs]

@Nano great work! Thanks for that, as well as pointing to the Strafe basin wiki page, that's also quite informative.

3 frames can't be wrong, agreed. Just to clarify I think 4 frames is also fine though, e.g. if someone only has slower claw bases with PS/other good staff mods. Like I mentioend runs with 4 frame kicks weren't noticeably slower, the only obvious difference was leech, which for me (HC) is perhaps also more important than it may be for others. After all, in many situations the PS lightning charges are the biggest contributor to the clear speed rather than FoF/BoI with their limited range.

@maxicek I don't mind either way, but alternatively you could also copy them or link to them, if you do get around to creating a guide? Sure those are largely general considerations for the build but also somewhat RFL/cow-related, so figured perhaps makes sense not to remove them here. We often had interesting things and build discussions come up in RFL threads, I like that tradition.

 

[Nano]

@maxicek I'm fine with either way as well. A new thread to consolidate all the information would be great, but at the same time we are throwing in some cow running specific tweaks to our setups. I'll be trying out some other Mosaic variants, and happy to contribute to the discussion as well.

 

[maxicek]

I'll leave it as is. I just didn't want this thread to become a Mosaic discussion. @PhineasB if you think we should move it elsewhere, let me know.

 

[ffs]

More Mosaic stuff incoming... but don't worry, it's mostly specifically for cow running.

I'm 7 hours into the set now. So far my takeaways from running with Mosaic Sin:

• DTalon attack rate: 3 frame DTalon indeed seems preferrable to 4 frame kicks, for the reasons discussed in the posts above.
• DTalon kicks: With reasonable gear you tend to land at a skill level with 4 kicks anyway, which really seems to be the sweet spot anyway. Going down to 3 kicks resulted in a worse experience overall, and 5 kicks seem too many due to getting locked into the animation (sometimes that happens even with 4 kicks, although rarely).
• FCR: In my opinion FCR is crucial for every cow running build, and I viewed 102 FCR as a no-brainer even in HC as soon as I was able to go for it, despite dropping from max %DR to 39%. It is only possible with Griffon's (Cham'ed as there is no option to include CBF otherwise) along with a 17+ FCR amulet, ideally with +2 Assassin skills. With 65 FCR, gearing is more lenient and offers other options which may or may not be appealing to individual players, but I happily gave up all those for 102 FCR.
• Safety technique (cursor positioning): Mostly relevant to HC, but still figured I'd mention this: Similar to PvP chainlocking technique, I found it's best to move the cursor to the Sin's feet during the last teleport animation before attacking, switching RMB to DTalon in-flight, and keep Alt pressed. That way she immediately attacks the nearest cow and instantly freezes surrounding monsters and gets very good leech when using Cobra Strike. I've had situations where the cursor was a bit away from the character when I switched to DTalon, which made her move around a bit not attacking anything. In those situations cows got a number of hits in; potentially dangerous when Might/Fana/Amp etc are involved.
• Claws: Ideal base is GC or GT for low requirements and WSM for automatic 3 frame DTalon kicks. The best way of getting a good base is to roll some LK or other map with a GT/GC rack and run it, looking for good staffmods. The way staffmods work, you can't have PS along with FoF on there. The best combination seems to be +3 PS along with +3 BoI and a third useful skill. While CoT seems like a natural option, note the below point re CoT - it is unclear whether it should be used in the first place. In light of that I'd prefer having Fade or Weapon Block as a third mod, other good options being Mind Blast, Shadow Master, Blade Shield... whatever one prefers.
• Charge-up stack for cows: My experience (at least for cows) is in line with @maxicek regarding CoT: Including it simply doesn't translate to faster runs in practice, in fact it could even be strictly better not to use it. But the differences is really tiny either way; in my case run times with and without CoT were pretty much the same. Otherwise, the rule is simple: 2 charges of PS and 3 charges of everything else. When running non-max FoF, everything else should naturally also CS and TS. This provides massive life/mana upkeep as long as FoF is skilled to around lvl 30-31 post gear/BC. FoF level above 31 resulted in less comfortable leech, 30 is great, 31 is still OK.
• Max/non-max FoF: For HC non-max is the clear choice, for SC I haven't tried and not 100% sure. Personally, seeing how much QoL the leech from CS/TS brings to the table with the non-max approach, I somehow doubt max FoF will result in an increase in damage/running speed significant enough to drop the super convenient leech. Also FoF is the most "melee" of the elemental damage sources, so maxing it will make a difference in close range but not necessarily speed up clearing big groups spread across the screen. I've also seen max FoF recommended due to its synergy with the 1st PS charge for act boss killing, but that makes little sense to me, at least not sufficient justification of foregoing CS/TS, given that bosses melt in seconds anyway irrespective of which PS charge is used.
• Life/mana upkeep: CS/TS charges do the job easily, and again say in HC it is a must. However, I was wondering about potential SC options if running max FoF with 102 FCR. The only sources of LPK/MPK are Enigma (used anyway) and Silkweave for MPK as well as potentially minimal amounts from rings. Relying on these sources seems a bit thin to be honest, and I suspect I'd prefer the CS/TS even in SC, but would be interested in hearing others' experiences. For 65 FCR setups, again plenty of options become available of course, such as MPK jewels and Dracul's Grasp. Doesn't seem super convincing either, but curious to hear about SC and/or 65 FCR runners testing the MPK/LPK approach.
• Kick damage? This only applies to non-max FoF obviously, but IMO there is little reason to try to include particularly high damage boots if they require significant strength investment. Only single target damage is physical and not significantly boosted apart from TS skill level. The only seemingly obvious reason would be leech, but that is automatically so good with CS as long as FoF is not too high. Personally I'd upgrade boots to exceptional/elite versions as long as I don't have to stat extra strength for it, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
• Traps? Pretty much cow specific, but before using Griffon's, I considered going for a point in Death's Sentry to improve clear speed. With Griffon's I quickly concluded that's not required, as PS lightning provides sufficient AoE range and damage to clear big groups of cows quickly enough even on P7. However, when not using Griffon's or with lower skill levels overall, DSentry could be a reasonable addition to the build.
• Other skill points: Apart from the FoF approach and the question of whether to include DSentry, good options for remaining skill are limited. Fade is an obvious choice, and maxxed in HC anyway. So is Weapon Block, although an investment to go for more than 56% block is questionable IMO. With other skills, utility drops quite a bit. Shadow Master is rather annoying as it MBs too much, in fact reducing efficiency. I'd say when leeching via CS/TS, spending remaining points in those is sensible. With max FoF you won't have such luxury problems and just go Fade/Weapon Block.

 

[Excalibur]

Doing good so far. 2 hours of TZ Cows gave me a total of 3 qualifiers and found 2 more on non-Terrorized cows.

And found a Nightwing's Veil (+11% CD)